Robert “The Insurance Doctor” Intelisano contact information: (917) 359-3985
Paul Edelstein:
Hello, welcome to Pulling Back the Legal Curtain. I am your host, Paul Edelstein. I’ll have my partner Glen Faegenburg with me most of the time. And this podcast is for all of you out there who have ever read about a court case, seen a court case, been involved in a court case, went to court, thought about court, and wondered what the hell is going on in courts? Seems like every day we have these kind of questions and get asked them. So, on this podcast we will pull back the curtain on the mystery that sometimes surrounds the court and what happens there, and hopefully give you some answers, some interesting, some humorous, some surprising. Stick with us on Pulling Back the Legal Curtain.
All right, so here we are. Robert Intelisano, the insurance doctor. Boy, I got to tell you, I talk to you all the time. But we’re always neglectful, we never record the conversations, because you’re the guy that I go to whenever I have issues relating to your insurance company. And you being the insurance doctor, I feel like I need a doctor whenever I’m trying to talk about insurance companies who I battle with. So, thank God-
Robert Intelisano:
I understand.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah, thank God I have you.
Robert Intelisano:
Well, we should start recording more often, because I think we’ve missed a lot of good material.
Paul Edelstein:
For sure, for sure. Just so we know, so my audience of seven people know, who listen to this, including our family members, who we help out personally, Rob is obviously a very long time friend of mine, but you are my go-to guy for all of my business related insurance, which I have a lot of insurance that I need. I have malpractice insurance, I have disability insurance, I have health insurance, I have dental insurance, I have worker’s comp insurance. So, from a business perspective, I go to you with all of these issues and all of these questions. From a personal perspective, I go to you for obviously my health insurance, long-term care insurance, estate planning issues with respect to my own family you’ve helped me with, which interact in a number of different legal fields with estate planning, with wills and trusts and estates, I mean everything under the sun.
And then, at the same time, I get asked all the time and have interactions with insurance companies all the time for my clients. So, because of that, you are an essential component to any personal injury lawyer for sure, and probably any person in an individual standpoint. Everyone should have an insurance doctor that they can go to on call. Thank God I have that. And with that, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your interaction with the insurance business, just like a general intro, other than mine. Mine was pretty good, but I think you could do better.
Robert Intelisano:
No, it’s all good. And it’s been a great relationship for many, many years, and we appreciate that business. And it’s important for clients to have insurance advisors they can speak to. And also, I think coordination is important for different types of policies. Because when you make a decision on one policy, it could have an impact on others. So for me, I have a unique business model. I quarterback a team of professional advisors, some of the top guys in the country, all have 20 years of experience in different specialties. And I look at myself really more as a problem solver and a connector. So when an issue comes up is a client has a problem, my job is to figure out, well how do we fix the problem utilizing insurance-based solutions in an economical way? Because really, insurance is a form of gambling, as you know. There’s a probability if something happened and people can either self-insure or transfer some of that risk to an insurance company.
So, my job is to educate the client and figure out, well how much of that risk should we transfer to the insurance company? And then, do some research and shop the market and find the best solution with the most reasonable premium. So, there’s a lot to it, but it’s very important for really all business owners to have go-to advisors. It doesn’t necessarily have to be me or one person, but it is important if they have multiple advisors for multiple types of insurances that those advisors are in conversation with each other, because making certain moves on one type of insurance could have an impact on others.
Paul Edelstein:
Right. So, that works the same way for me. So, we’re advisors. I like to think we’re lawyers, counselors at law, and I really like to think that we counsel people on a number of different issues. And certainly, in my experience, doing this for a long time, and you’ve been doing it as long as I have been, we rely on experts like you when we have questions and things that we can’t answer. Hopefully, we rely on guys like you before there’s a problem, and we don’t need a problem solved.
With that in mind, I get asked all the time, when clients come in and want me to educate them after they’ve been involved in some kind of accident, and then they want to know how the system works. But as I understand it, clients come to you for a very different reason. So, they may come to you at the inception and say, “Well, what do I need and what don’t I need?” And since you and I both are involved in the insurance industry, I fight with insurance companies all the time. You probably do too.
Robert Intelisano:
So do I.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah, exactly. What kind of things do you tell… The average Joe walks in, say, “Hey listen, here’s something you probably should have, the average person should have, average client should have. Here’s things you don’t necessarily need to have. Here’s the gray zone in between,” on the average guy.
Robert Intelisano:
Yeah, I mean depending on what their needs are, there is over insurance. And I just find that a lot of insurance brokers and agents, they’re really more like salespeople. They’re just trying to get a sale, and it’s very shortsighted. I look at myself, like yourself, more as a counselor and an advisor. So, I first want to have a conversation as what’s important to you, what are your objectives? And then we will make a recommendation as far as policy based on those objectives. And we’ll also give them two or three options and explain the differences.
For example, I got referred to a woman and she just got out of her residency recently, and now she’s in her fellowship, and she’s going to jump from about $85,000 to about $450,000 of income in one year. And she’s young, low forties, young kids. And we’re talking about disability insurance. And disability is critical for doctors. And she has an advantage because, unlike most people, she’s going to have a big bump in income and she knows how much the income is going to be, so she can plan in advance. So, I explained to her, “Look, I mean you can wait until your income goes up in two to three years, but you’re going to pay a higher premium. You can lock in on a base policy right now for a lower premium, and then you can add more insurance down the road.”
And so, I gave her a couple of different options of disability policies for example. And she said, “Okay, well what are some of the other differences?” We started with the top seven. We have a whole program, and we take the price from pricing, we removed the top few because they were too expensive. One company wasn’t A rated, so we removed them. And then, we were down to two or three companies. And I explained to her, “Look, there are similarities, but the wording…” And I know one of the reasons why you’re such a great attorney is because you pay attention to detail, and the wording of insurance policies, one different word could main make the difference between being on claim and not being on, one word. So, the definition of death disability is critical, meaning own occupation. So, the better policies mean that you can’t perform your own occupation, your specialty, then you can go on claim as opposed to any gainful occupation in your field.
To give you an example, she’s an anesthesiologist. She’s right handed. I give her an example. I said, “Okay, great example, husband and wife going out. You go out your husband. By mistake, the door gets closed on your right hand. Your hand’s mangled. You can no longer perform the job you were trained to do, which is an anesthesiologist, because you need dexterity in your right hand. With a good policy you’re on claim, because you can’t perform the material of substantial duties of your specialty. And you would also have the option to say, ‘Look, my hand is destroyed. It’s not going to heal where I can’t be an anesthesiologist anymore. However, I can supervise others.'” She could shift into a managerial position and still be on claim and be working with the proper type of policy. With the wrong type of policy is any gainful occupation, so the first two years they give you own occupation, and then after the second year you now has to fight again to go on to continue that claim. And that’s again, it’s just a little definition of disability.
We also found one of the three policies actually will cover elective plastic surgery gone bad. She’s like, “Wow, I can’t believe this, because it is something I’ve been thinking about down the road. I’m in my younger forties now, but once I hit 50, I think I’m going to want to maybe do something.” I said, “Well, this particular policy will cover elective plastic surgery gone bad. And you can actually take a policy out to age 70 if you don’t plan on retiring at 65.” So, it’s important to be able to really dig in and learn about the person before you start going and looking at products.
Paul Edelstein:
See, so now that’s important, because that same person, if they had an elective surgery gone bad, may end up in my office. Right?
Robert Intelisano:
Well, exactly.
Paul Edelstein:
Right?
Robert Intelisano:
Exactly.
Paul Edelstein:
And now I’m thinking, all right, if that happens, an elective surgery gone bad, all right that’s a very nuanced thing in one of these disability policies. But let’s just take that same anesthesiologist gets in a car accident and mangles her hand. She’s also going to now be in my office with a claim. Now, because my claims could take years to resolve, the first problem I run into is somebody saying, “What am I supposed to do in the meantime?” And if they don’t have that disability policy from you, it’s a major problem.
Because, people always ask me that. You get a car accident, anything, any kind of accident, they’re hurt, they’re out of work, and the first thing that’s going to happen is they’re not getting a paycheck. And so, the very first thing I’m looking at then is to say, “Well, is there some kind of coverage in between here that you can tap into while we’re waiting for the litigation to play out, which could take years?” So, if these people didn’t have the foresight to see somebody like you and have an understanding, hey, maybe this is a good idea, they could be out of luck, and then they could be waiting years for a claim to wind its way through the litigation process before I can get them a recovery. You seen that happen before?
Robert Intelisano:
No question. Yeah, absolutely. No question about it. And a great mentor of mine used to say the situation is the boss. So, in a situation where they didn’t plan for a short and medium term disability issues, I mean they may take a much lower settlement as opposed to waiting it out and letting you do your thing. Again, it’s so important just to discuss these things and at least present options that they have, whether they choose to put those options into play really is their decision. But it’s my job to present options and here’s why it makes sense to you, and you make the decision.
Paul Edelstein:
See, that’s an interesting thing, because see, here the interaction between somebody having a policy like you just said and as it relates to a litigation is they may be in a much better position to wait out a litigation and get full value on their litigation-related claim because they have a disability policy in place that’s paying their lost wages during that time period. So, these are all things that just become tremendously relevant to a litigator. The other thing that happens all the time for us, Rob, and I know I call you all the time, this is how is the interplay when a case closes with somebody that has benefits and things like that and how that’s going to relate to that. Do people come to you when they have a litigation related claim and they’re like, “Well, hey, what do I do? How does this impact on my policies”?
Robert Intelisano:
Yeah, they absolutely do. Usually, life triggering events are the time to start reviewing existing policies. So, lawsuit, litigation, divorce, death, disability, a new child, when you’re having life-changing events, that is the time really that you want to take a look and look at your policies and do another review. And also, fortunately, we work with a lot of law firms like yours. And I’m actually a guardian. I have two wards, so I’m familiar with writing affidavits and reading legal documents and also structured settlements. So, it’s important to understand that I can counsel them on the structured settlement and also certain monies, what should we do with money is that you’re not going to be getting a structured settlement. Right now, these are structured settlements. This is a great time to take out a structure settlement, because interest rates are so high. And as you know, Uncle Sam gives you a one-time get out of jail free card to have tax-free interest. This is optimal time for that type of planning.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah. That’s interesting that you mentioned that, Rob. I didn’t even think of that. There’s three different times that I rely on a guy you. There’s before anything’s ever happened to me or anybody in my business personally, where I’m coming to you and saying, “Hey, what do I need to cover my employees, myself, my family?” Nothing’s happened to me, but I’m asking that. And I think periodically, you and I talk about that and review that, probably on a yearly basis or certainly biyearly basis, where you revisit-
Robert Intelisano:
Or [inaudible 00:12:31] in passing.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah, that’s right. Well, we pass each other, so we get that chance. But guys that don’t pass each other probably should look out for that and say, “All right, before anything ever happens, let me do this.”
Then there are times I come to talk to you when something has happened, not to me personally really, but clients. I go, “Hey Rob, I got a client. This is what happened. I want to know what you think about how does this impact on their disability policy, how can we use it,” or whatever. But there’s also times that I come to you, because you just triggered that thought, when I’ve settled the case. And I’ve said, “All right, now I’ve got a situation where I’ve got somebody permanently injured or catastrophic type of case. I’ve got a proposed settlement out there. Part of the settlement money is earmarked or supposed to be geared towards future medical care.” So then, if a lawyer like me doesn’t engage someone like you, he’s a fool, he’s not doing his job, to say, “All right, I’ve got this settlement. It relates to this person’s future care.” So now, I need somebody like you to weigh in and go, “Hey, am I handling this right?” That’s where structured settlements sometimes come in, trusts sometimes come in, guardianship sometimes come in. And clearly, that’s where a guy you comes in, right?
Robert Intelisano:
That is true. And I will say that is one thing that does set you apart and your firm is the degree of care that you have for your clients. I mean, I do business with a lot of law firms, PI, med mal, matrimonial. And there are times where I sense that the lawyer just wants to get rid of that client. Once they give them that check, they’re like, “Wow, I’m happy to be rid of that client.” To me, their job is not fully done at that point. So, you want to make sure you’re giving a check to a client, a large check, if they’re not doing a structured settlement, their problems aren’t over. Their problems have just shifted into, “Now what do I do with this money and all the new friends I have that know I got a big settlement?”
So yeah, exactly those, that’s important times. Because now, if they’re going to go with the structured settlement, now you know their income, which makes it a little easier to plan, because you have certainty. So, no question about that’s an important time, once they receive a check, to send them to a guy like myself. Absolutely.
Paul Edelstein:
I even recollect that you’ve been involved with me definitely. And I think other guys actually got involved in court cases at the settlement stage, have you not?
Robert Intelisano:
I have, yeah. And I love that. I mean, my father always wanted me to be an attorney, and I was the type to do the opposite. So of course I got into insurance instead and my brother became the attorney. Yeah, so I really enjoy the legal aspect of it. I am a guardian, so I do work with the Queens Supreme Court Article 81, and I really enjoy the legal aspect of it.
Paul Edelstein:
How does that work? You being a guardian, let’s say, look, that could be non-litigation, nothing related to a personal injury or injury case, but oftentimes it is. Somebody’s disabled as a result of an accident, or I guess they could become disabled and need a guardian obviously a lot of times without an accident ever happening, and a guy like you gets involved. What do you do in those situations?
Robert Intelisano:
Well, for me it’s important to understand what their total situation is. How is the family involved? Do they have the wherewithal to pay their own bills, to make their medical decisions? So, I feel like it helps me be well-rounded to be a guardian, and to look out for certain things, and to know when it would make sense to put Article 81 papers in to try to get a guardian or not. Supplemental needs trust sometimes will come into play. So, being involved practically, instead of just research wise, I feel gives me good actual case knowledge and experience to give my advice.
Paul Edelstein:
There’s no doubt. I mean, I’ve seen it personally with you. So, supplemental needs trust, those are things that impact on my business in representing injured people all the time. What kind of interaction do you have with supplemental needs trust as it relates to a claimant that I may represent?
Robert Intelisano:
Well, I mean one of my wards has an SNT. So, it’s important to understand the document, because I’m bonded and I have a fiduciary responsibility. So, I’ve got to be responsible with that money. We’re talking about seven figures. So, you’re investing the money, you’ve got to protect the principle. I always try to explain to people in general, if you don’t have money, then your problems are different, you need money. If you have money, it’s about protecting yourself.
And really, there’s three main contingencies that I want to make sure they’re taken care of. You could either lose your money in the stock market, you can get sued and lose your money, or you can get sick and your money can go down to drain for hospital and medical bills. So, it’s important to make sure that the client are protected from all those three things. So we want to utilize FDIC. There are insurance products that are protected. This what’s called the New York State Guarantee Corporation, where fixed annuities are protected in case there’s default. I mean, with the recent banking crisis, these things will come to the forefront, and it’s important to know these rules and laws.
Paul Edelstein:
Right. So, this is what happens when we are fortunate to come to the end of a litigation and get somebody a settlement. Now, for me, as a lawyer, I start thinking, well wait a minute, now I may have some desire to protect this settlement for things like that you just said, litigation, death, disability, all these things, how do we protect it? But there’s also a fourth branch that a lot of lawyers don’t think about and a guy like you is an expert at, which is, well, what if I have somebody that’s getting a settlement but they’re receiving certain benefits, like Social Security Disability, or they have Medicaid or something like that. And the settlement could impact on that. And that’s where supplemental needs trust sometimes come into play. And you know what? As much as I know about that, I’d be a fool to try to do that without having somebody like you advise me. So, you come across that, I would imagine?
Robert Intelisano:
I do. I do. And that’s important. And for me, fortunately, I quarterback a team of independent professionals. So, I have a Medicare specialist, Medicaid specialist, and we try to have what’s similar to you guys do with Glen, try to have a think tank type situation where we have a bunch of eyeballs on a case, let’s talk it out, let’s confer on it, and figure out some potential solutions. Because, sometimes you can get too close to a case and it’s a little easier to have someone who’s a little bit on the outside take a look in and give you their 35,000-foot viewpoint.
Paul Edelstein:
Right. Well, let me give you an example. Somebody came to me. A client came to me, she had another lawyer in a case, all right? She was receiving Medicaid benefits and she got public assistance. And she had a personal injury case, and a lawyer took the case, settled the case, and said, “All right, you know what?” It wasn’t millions of dollars, but it was a significant amount of money, it was six figure money. And lawyer just cut her a check, gave her the check, “Congratulations, here’s your check, here’s your money, good luck.” Well, a few months later, she got a bunch of notices in the mail saying, “Hey, we got a little problem with this money that you got.”
Robert Intelisano:
Put the money in the bank probably.
Paul Edelstein:
Exactly. All right. And now, this person calls me and says, “Can you explain to me what happened? Well, I’m losing my benefits and the state is calling me and threatening, and I’m completely worried.” So now, I had to go look back and undo what happened. I know you know what happened.
Robert Intelisano:
Yeah, I know what happened. This happens all the time. And the proper research it made… Again, I don’t know her specifics, but she could have put that money into, let’s say, a deferred annuity, and it’s tax deferred, the interest is not reportable until you pull the money out. So, one option could have been to reposition those assets into a fixed deferred annuity, and the interest would not be reportable at that point, and that would bring her above those limits, which are very low for Medicaid.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah, exactly. And supplemental needs trust and all these things. So, I take it that particular case sounds like that particular lawyer, representing that particular client, didn’t engage someone like you. Didn’t it sound like that.
Robert Intelisano:
Yeah. And that’s one of the points I brought up in the beginning. To me, again, it’s my own opinion, but it is a version of malpractice for an attorney, knowing they may not be a financial savvy client, cutting them a big check, and not at least guiding them to some type of advisor to help them with the next step. Just because their enumeration is over doesn’t mean that the client is fully taken care of, in my opinion. And that’s what you guys have always done, which I respect greatly.
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah, well if you don’t do it, you’re going to run into big problems. You’re not doing your job. So, you got to engage-
Robert Intelisano:
Also, you’re not going to get referrals. They’re not going to send their family to you.
Paul Edelstein:
That’s right. It’s almost like, you don’t want to see the insurance doctor after you’ve already become sick. I think maybe you want to see the insurance doctor before there’s a-
Robert Intelisano:
Yes. I tell them, I said, “Let me give you a first opinion as opposed to a second opinion, please.”
Paul Edelstein:
Exactly. Well, we feel the same way. As lawyers, we’re seeing people after the fact, after an injury, after a problem, and we’re trying to help them there. Obviously, there’s nothing I could do to prevent somebody from being hurt before it happens. But in your business, there’s a lot that can be done, I think, before something happens. And we see neglect all the time, not only on behalf of just a regular person, a client, but we also see it in that middle stage. In other words, you have a lawyer involved in an accident claim and they’re not engaging somebody with your expertise to think, all right, how does this impact with current insurance that this person has, and how may a potential settlement impact on their benefits and the things they have in place after a settlement?
Robert Intelisano:
Yeah, I agree. And I think it’s probably a combination of reasons. Perhaps one, the lawyer not thinking about it and/or not having the go-to person. There’s not that many people, very few insurance advisors will do what I do. I have five back offices, we have a hundred companies that we represent and track 2,000 products. The amount of information that… The flow, that’s like a full-time job within itself. And so, very few insurance advisors will do that.
Because what most advisors will do is they will what’s called aggregating their business between one and three companies. By doing that, by doing the majority of your business… And it’s rare for me to find the insurance agent or broker. And again, an insurance agent is an employee of a company. They represent the company, which means they have to do a certain amount of business to hit their quotas. They get your subsidized 401k, your match, they get your subsidized health insurance, they get your rah, rah trips. So, it’s in their best interest to put their pocket before yours and aggregate their production with one to three companies.
Well, in many cases, you’re putting a square peg into a round hole. With 100 companies, I’m not determining which company that they go with. I’m going to show them two or three options, explain the differences, and they’ll make a decision. So, I’m not selling it, they’re buying it. And it’s a big difference as far as it’s educational and they know that they don’t need to go somewhere else because he’s going to tip every stone. He’s going to uncover every stone and give them the differences and why.
Paul Edelstein:
That’s really interesting that you say that, Rob. And maybe I should explain that in the beginning. All right, I’m from Brooklyn. I know you were raised out in Queens. That’s a little [inaudible 00:22:50] quote for you there, all right.
Robert Intelisano:
That’s it.
Paul Edelstein:
I know you like that.
Robert Intelisano:
I’m going back to Cali actually.
Paul Edelstein:
Exactly. Let me just simplify that for a minute. I really, in my business, I don’t like insurance companies. I fight with insurance companies. I sue insurance companies. They’re not my friend, ever. All right? But somebody like you, I think people have a misconception. They think that you work for the insurance company, for the giant insurance company that they don’t like. And nothing can be further from the truth. You don’t at all.
Robert Intelisano:
All right. This is a really important point and I’m glad you keyed in on it. I got recruited by Prudential when I was at Lehigh. So, I started with Prudential. They had a really good training program. And I was there 10 years. But I was an agent, so meaning I worked for Prudential. I’m a W2 employee.
In 1999, I got to a point… And Prudential at the time, they were stronger than they are now. They had products in every single aspect. They had mutual funds, a health insurance product, disability, life insurance, long-term care. I mean, they had everything. And they’re telling you how great it is. I’m 22 years old coming out of Lehigh, I’m all fired up. I’m going to believe what they’re telling me. But then once I started getting into the field and seeing things, and they tried to shelter you from the real world, so to speak.
I went to get my designations and I’d meet with other guys and I was like, “Look, let, let’s get together. Bring your products from the other companies.” I mean, I’m dating myself, but it became called a lunch and learn. So, I pulled advisors together, bring all your stuff, and I’m looking, I’m like, “Prudential’s not the best at all these things. I can’t in good conscious stay with this company.”
So, in 1999, I opened up my own firm and I became a broker, an independent broker, not an agent. As a broker, I represent you, Edelsteins, Faegenburg & Brown and/or your clients, if you refer. And then, I go to the insurance company and shop. So, believe me, I don’t like insurance companies either. I roll with them all the time. Especially these days, because everyone’s understaffed.
But the one thing that we are good at is negotiations. I had a situation actually today, guy was referred by the CPA and needed life insurance, and the other agents made a questionable sale, and he wanted to unravel it. The guy gained a bunch of weight, and they gave him a standard rating, and we fought to get it down to preferred, which was a 30% difference in premium. So, I know about battling with insurance companies. And sometimes I have one of my partners call, the good cop, bad cop. Usually I enjoy being the bad cop better, but I’ll do either.
Paul Edelstein:
Well, there’s no doubt, Rob. That’s where we could could end on here, man, because you and I are very much alike in that sense. We’re both independent, completely dedicated to only to our client. You do not represent insurance companies. We only represent our client. You only represent these individuals. And when you get that kind of mix, that’s where you get the best results. So quite a bit of overlap between us.
Robert Intelisano:
No doubt about it. And I oftentimes explain to people, look, I’m the anti-insurance agent. Like, “What do you mean?” So, when you go to a cocktail priority, you see an insurance agent, you’re going the other way. I want them to come and hang out and be fun. So, I’m not talking shop 24/7. And I actually get a lot of my business from insurance agents that either don’t have the product line or the wherewithal to place certain type of business and they’ll send it to me. So I mean, I often, I get maybe half of my business from other insurance reps.
Paul Edelstein:
Well, that seems deservedly so. And so, as it interacts with my business, everybody should have an insurance doctor. Everybody should have an advocate lawyer, if you need one of these situations. And the key thing is to have these right people in place, and there’s overlap between these two businesses that require communication between people like you and people like me. And I’m glad I have it. Thank God I have the doctor.
Robert Intelisano:
I am too.
Paul Edelstein:
Make two calls and call the doctor in the morning before there’s a problem. Right?
Robert Intelisano:
That’s it. That’s it. Don’t forget to hydrate while you’re doing so.
Paul Edelstein:
All right, peace and we out of here.
Robert Intelisano:
All right.
Paul Edelstein:
Rob, thanks for coming out.
Robert Intelisano:
Take care, Paul. Thank you.
Paul Edelstein:
Thanks for joining us on Pulling Back the Legal Curtain with Paul and Glen. Because we get so many questions over so many years about what goes on behind the legal curtain in the legal world, we tried to put this together so that it would be entertaining, and interesting, and hopefully educational. If you liked it, come join us again. Or visit our website at edelsteinslaw.com. Either way, we’re always going to be here in front of and behind the legal curtain doing the only thing that we know how to do, which is proceed. Take care.
You can find The Edelsteins Faegenburg & Brown Law firm on LinkedIn.