Podcast Transcript:
Paul Edelstein:
Hello! Welcome to Pulling Back the Legal Curtain. I am your host Paul Edelstein. I’ll have my partner Glenn Faegenburg with me most of the time. And this podcast is for all of you out there who have ever read about a court case, seen a court case, been involved in a court case, went to court, thought about court, and wondered, “What the hell is going on in courts?” It seems like every day we have these kind of questions, and get asked them, so on this podcast, we will pull back the curtain on the mystery that sometimes surrounds the court and what happens there, and hopefully give you some answers; some interesting, some humorous, some surprising. Stick with us on Pulling Back the Legal Curtain.
All right. Now, Shareiff, now we’re coming back. Now, you just asked me something. You brought up Young Thug’s case, and you don’t like what’s going on, so that just spurred me to ask you a question that I wanted to ask you.
Shareiff Council:
Okay.
Paul Edelstein:
Right? So, let’s face it, even though when you and I walk around, people are like, “Are you two guys related?” I don’t know. If they see us. I don’t think so, right? But if they hang out with us, maybe they go, “You guys seems to get along,” right?
Now, here’s the thing. I know that you walk into a courtroom, you’re going to get looked at, treated differently than if I walk in a courtroom. Ain’t that right?
Shareiff Council:
Yeah.
Paul Edelstein:
So, I mean-
Shareiff Council:
[inaudible 00:01:29].
Paul Edelstein:
Right. And, listen, I’m lucky. I can never experience what you’ve experienced. I don’t care how much I learn about it, or encounter it through guys like you, I’m never going to be able to put myself in your shoes, ever. But, as a trial lawyer, if I don’t take into consideration what you’ve got to go through, in either the clients that I’m representing… Let’s say I represent a young Black male, like you. I’d better know who I’m representing, and what he’s all about. [inaudible 00:02:00] damn well better know what jurors are going to think about him. And that could be any juror, right?
So, you’ve been with me for years and years and years. How much do we talk about that element? Like race and what’s going on in a courtroom, and racism and all that. We talk about it all the time.
Shareiff Council:
Right, right. Yeah, we always discussed it. Right.
Paul Edelstein:
I mean, you’re like one of my [inaudible 00:02:22] my jury consultants, right? How many times have we come to you guys?
Shareiff Council:
[inaudible 00:02:26] your company and we sit there for about an hour, you just going back and forth about… Yeah, definitely.
Paul Edelstein:
Right? And you give me perspective, right? And a lot of times I want to know what perspective is. I want to know, “What’s a young Black male going to think about this issue, this client, this thing?” Right?
Shareiff Council:
Of course. And I totally understand. I mean, I don’t necessarily speak for the whole community, but I do know that there’s a broad spectrum of inconsistencies, where it’s like, if it happened to me, it more than likely happened to someone else that I know who shares the same complexion as me, you know what I mean?
And then, another thing not a lot of people in the community and they’ll do what I do, you know what I mean? So, if you want to talk about lawsuits and stuff like that, like with a car or something… You know, I told you before, I used to think that… Up until I actually was working in a field, I would think that you get in a car accident, you’re a millionaire. You slip and fall, you’re automatically paid. And not to sound crazy, but I’m pretty sure a lot of people think like that, and that’s only for lack of knowledge, for not knowing. You know what I’m saying? And that’s only from lack of… It can trickle all the way down. Lack of funding, lack of school, it trickles all the way down. It don’t stop. It don’t just stop at one place, you know what I mean? So-
Paul Edelstein:
Well, it’s information. I mean, if people don’t have experience, they don’t have information, so you’re talking about a couple of things here. I think understanding how race plays a role in every single case, like if you’re a trial lawyer and you’re not taking in that to consideration, you’re not doing your job. You’re just not doing your job.
Shareiff Council:
Not just my client’s Black; if my client’s white, if my client’s Mexican. It’s not just-
Paul Edelstein:
That’s right.
Shareiff Council:
Race plays a part in every single case, no matter how you look at it, no matter how you want to try to deny it, because I know everything’s supposed to be unbiased and everything, but it is what it is. We didn’t make the rules, you know what I mean?
Paul Edelstein:
Right. Unbiased. So, if I were to tell you, if I were to say… I want to see your reaction. So, you’re not going to be able to see this reaction if you’re listening to this on the radio, but let’s see your face. You ready? I’m going to go, “Hey, Shareiff.” I’m a lawyer, and I’m going to say it. I’m picking a jury, and I go, “Listen, Mr. Council, I’m going to tell you…” I’m going to talk like some of the lawyers I’ve seen. “We’re going to start this case.” I can’t do my defense lawyer voice. “We’re going to start this case, and we’re trying to pick fair jurors, right? So, I represent a young Black male. Everybody is going to treat him fair, right?” Now, if I were to say to you, “Race is not going to play a role at all in my client’s case,” what you think?
Shareiff Council:
You see my face, right?
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah. You see, that’s why I was like [inaudible 00:05:11]. How stupid. That would be ridiculous, right? If a lawyer would even suggest that. But, you know, every time I pick a jury, that’s the first thing out of, not my mouth, but the other lawyer or the judge, it’s, “We’re trying to pick a jury, so we’re looking for fair and impartial people.” Meanwhile, when I get in that jury room first, I’m like, “None of you are fair and impartial.”
Shareiff Council:
Nobody’s going to be fair and impartial.
Paul Edelstein:
Right. “And I can’t ask for that. What I’m going to tell you is, where is what I’ve got, and if you have issues with it, tell me.”
Shareiff Council:
You don’t deserve to be [inaudible 00:05:42].
Paul Edelstein:
Right. Now, I don’t think anybody’s ever going to raise their hand and be like, “I’ve got an issue that you’ve got a young Black client,” whatever, but I’ll tell you what, when I do… even when I don’t… Yeah, I’ve got to tell you something. I think every single juror that I’ve ever told, when I talk about prejudices and biases, everybody gets afraid to talk about it. I’m like, “What are we afraid to talk… I’m in a jury room, and I need to get assurance that people are going to treat my client equally.” Whatever he is, right? I don’t care if he’s white. Doesn’t make a difference.
So, we’re talking about that concept, and one thing I use is to say, “Well, imagine if I walked in here with a young Black male like you, who’s all tattooed up.” How many tattoos you got?
Shareiff Council:
I don’t know. A lot. I’m covered up right now. You can’t see, I’m covered up, but-
Paul Edelstein:
You’re the example. And imagine if I walked into a courtroom and I’ve got a young Black male, and he’s all tattooed up. There’s no way people are not going to make judgments about him, and if I’m representing him in a criminal case, my assumption is going to be that when I walk in with [inaudible 00:06:42] a young Black male tattooed up, my assumption is going to be when I start that people are going to say, “Must be guilty of something. Must be a bad guy,” something. I’m just going to start with that. And maybe I’ll try to break it down for you, but that’s the prejudices and biases. Don’t tell me that those don’t exist, because if you do, then I think you’re lying, as a juror.
Shareiff Council:
Right.
Paul Edelstein:
Right? You’ve got to deal with it a hell of a lot worse than me. I don’t have to walk out on the street and deal with it. I don’t even know what the hell that could be like for you. That’s got to [inaudible 00:07:10] horrible. When I get in a courtroom, I’ve got a job. My job is to make sure that that doesn’t affect the outcome of the case, and so if I don’t think that it’s a factor to start, I’m an idiot.
Shareiff Council:
Right. You’re not doing your job correctly, correct. I agree.
Paul Edelstein:
Ridiculous!
Shareiff Council:
I agree with you 100%. I mean, honestly, I want my lawyer to be like, “Yo, listen.” Again, maybe this is only because I’m in the field, but as many times as I say, “Maybe it’s only because I’m in the field,” you have to account for the people that’s not in the field, and that’s also in my demographic. Because I know a lot of people, lot of people, call me for… And it won’t be a case, but they’ll call me for the smallest thing, like, “Hey. The door closed on my fingernail. My fingernail broke.” And it’s like, “Bro, I get it, but you don’t get it.” And that’s only for, again, lack of understanding, you know what I’m saying?
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah. I get it. But you know what’s interesting, Shareiff, though? A guy like you is out there, and you’re… You know what? There’s a term for it. I’ve got to pull my intellectual stuff. You know I can’t… I don’t play that role too well. I think guys like you are called ‘connectors’. There’s a term for it. You know what? Maybe a better term, social media, would be like ‘influencer’. But, like a connect. So, there are guys out in the community like you that the community is lucky to have, that people can go to and go, “Hey, I’ve got this issue.” You’re a go-to guy that people will say, “I’ve got a problem.” And the good thing is that you have all of this education and experience and knowledge.
Shareiff Council:
Yes. Yes. Agreed.
Paul Edelstein:
So, that’s a major factor. And that’s sort of a way that communities function. You’re really talking about a sociological principle here. It’s interesting. I think that’s what we’re going to talk about today, man.
Shareiff Council:
Right.
Paul Edelstein:
Hip hop be more fun. But, you’re really hitting on a really sophisticated principle, okay? And that is, where people in communities go… First of all, who they trust.
Shareiff Council:
Who do they trust? That’s the main thing right there, is who do you trust?
Paul Edelstein:
Yeah. Okay. And actually, we’re going to talk about that and lawyers in a minute, because that’s a good topic for you and I to talk about.
Shareiff Council:
Remember what I told you before. Remember when we were on trial on the Stollers case, you remember what I told you. You were like, “Oh.” About why people don’t… And I’m like, “Yo. That’s crazy. We don’t really trust the court system. We don’t trust the court system.”
Paul Edelstein:
Oh, you know what? That’s a great [inaudible 00:09:35]. Let’s tell that [inaudible 00:09:37]. That’s right. Wait a minute. Wait. So, let’s tell that story. So, wait, wait, that’s right. You’re there with me on trial, and you’re there at a lot of my trials, right? Not only because you’re six-foot-five and could help me carry stuff and scare dudes away from me, but you know you’re there because I’m like, “Dude, I want your opinion on what’s going on,” a juror, or something you see, and we value your opinion. And again, as a trial lawyer, if you don’t tap into your resources… like you, and other staff that I have here… you’re an idiot.
But, this particular trial, now I remember. Wait. So, we had a Black female client, right?
Shareiff Council:
Yep.
Paul Edelstein:
And the issue in the case had to do with why… I think it was why she didn’t do something with the police, or talk to the police, get a lawyer right away. And the defense was making a big deal out of it, right?
Shareiff Council:
Right.
Paul Edelstein:
And you, from what I remember, now, you were like, “Look…” I didn’t even get it. You were like, “Paul, let me explain something to you. Black people, they don’t think they’re going to get a fair shake by either the police, the [inaudible 00:10:40].”
Shareiff Council:
[inaudible 00:10:40] not understand, and this has been going on way before me, you know what I’m saying? Like I said, we didn’t make the rules. There’s been so many instances of Black people walking into the courtroom and not walking out, you know what I mean? Unfairly, unjustly, you know what I’m saying? So, I hate to say it like it’s in our DNA, because that sounds so like, “Oh, we can’t get over it,” but it’s almost like it’s in our DNA, like, “Yo. Stay away from the courts. Stay away from the cop. Stay away from the…” You know what I mean?
Paul Edelstein:
It ain’t in your DNA that the system has systematically-
Shareiff Council:
Systematically, yes! That’s the crazy part. Yo, that’s the crazy part. It’s like we hit the nail right on the head right there. Systematically this is done, you know what I mean?
Paul Edelstein:
Yo, here’s the thing there. Here’s the thing there. You, as in influencer or a connector in your community, got to put out there to the people in your community that you think are DNA bound to this principle. I bet you you go out there and you’re like, “Listen, you get a lawyer like Paul, that ain’t going to happen.”
Shareiff Council:
All the time. All the time I’m telling them, “Listen, I guarantee you Paul, first of all, he don’t…” You already know I tell them, “He don’t play none of that discrimination stuff, none of that. Once you start playing on that type of… you’re going to insult him, and he’s going to go extra hard for you.” That’s what I tell them. I go, “Don’t let him feel like that they’re playing with you because you’re Black, or you’re Latino or something. He’s going to go real… He’s going to lose it, I’m going to tell you right now. He’s going to go crazy.” You know what I mean?
I’ve been in an experience where, I told you, where I was getting… I don’t even want to talk about this on the webcam. [inaudible 00:12:12].
Paul Edelstein:
It’s up to you, man.
Shareiff Council:
If you really want to be transparent, there was a situation where I was getting mishandled by the police, and I had to tell them, I’m like, “Yo. You don’t even understand who I work for.” I was ripping into them like, “You don’t understand who I work for. He is going to tear you guys apart. I can’t believe y’all are doing this to me. It’s because I’m Black!” I was going so crazy on them. I went so crazy. Listen, I went so crazy that when I had to go to the pretrial and pick up property. I swear, my two arresting officers, they came outside and they apologized to me like, “Yo, I’m sorry. We just did what our commanding officer…”
Because basically what happened, long story short, is I… You don’t have to keep the story, but long story short, long story short, when the commanding officer showed up, he didn’t assess the situation or anything. He literally just looked at me and said, “Take him,” you know what I’m saying? So, there wasn’t no, “This happened, this happened.” He didn’t even… So, of course [inaudible 00:13:07] he just looked at me, young Black kid, and just assumed that I did something wrong. He went off on me. And so I feel like he violated me, so yeah, I went off on him for that.
And I promise to God, when I went to pick up my stuff, both of the officers came outside [inaudible 00:13:22] something for a second. They’re trying to apologize. “Sorry about that. We was just doing… You know, we weren’t really acting in the right.” They apologized. And I could’ve had them dead to rights at that point. It’s still assault though, but I could’ve had them, though, you know what I’m saying? But, at the end of the day, my respect meant a lot more, you know what I’m saying? And the fact that they had to respect me now at that point, it meant a little bit more to me at that point. I mean, of course a couple hundred thousand would’ve been a little better, but, you know, hey. You win some, you lose some, you know what I mean?
Paul Edelstein:
Well, listen, as least you knew, because you’ve been here for so long, that if these guys wanted to take it to another level, that you would have the ability to even the playing field, right?
Shareiff Council:
Oh, my God. Go crazy.
Paul Edelstein:
All right.
Shareiff Council:
[inaudible 00:14:02].
Paul Edelstein:
That’s a good place to break. Let’s break right here before we get you in more trouble, all right?
Shareiff Council:
[inaudible 00:14:08].
Paul Edelstein:
Thanks for joining us on Pulling Back the Legal Curtain with Paul and Glenn. Because we get so many questions over so many years about what goes on behind the legal curtain, in the legal world, we tried to put this together so that it would be entertaining and interesting, and hopefully educational. If you liked it, come join us again, or visit our website at edelsteinslaw.com. Either way, we’re always going to be here, in front of and behind the legal curtain, doing the only thing that we know how to do, which is proceed. Take care.
You can find The Edelsteins Faegenburg & Brown Law firm on LinkedIn.